Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Read's Contract; The Realities of NHLers in Europe

I think Giroux gets a top 5 contract next time around.

No risk that he signs anywhere other than the Flyers.

But, his agent will have great leverage in negotiations knowing that he is so attractive to teams like Montreal and Ottawa.

Nice write up Bill...
it will be interesting to see what the Flyers do in reference to their roster when the lockout ends.

Nice write up Bill...
it will be interesting to see what the Flyers do in reference to their roster when the lockout ends.
- phi1671

I sure hope the lockout ends soon....

The Flyers have been one of the most aggressive teams in exploiting loopholes in the last CBA and treating the draft as a piggy bank rather than a development system. It's no surprise that teams such as Nashville (most likely) don't care how closing loopholes affect the Flyers. They are in a prison of their own making. The Pronger trade and subsequent over 35 contract were pretty idiotic but served a short term need at long term expense. Well the longterm arrived. Also, despite Holmgren's assurances otherwise, the Flyers weren't aware that the contract he signed was a 35+ contract.

I sure hope the lockout ends soon....
- Flyers_1488

Yes, the lockout has gone on long enough but I don't see it ending any time soon. If I was a betting man, I would put the odds of the season being cancelled at 60%. Sorry to say!

Each team will have it's own problems filling out their rosters.

Yes, the lockout has gone on long enough but I don't see it ending any time soon. If I was a betting man, I would put the odds of the season being cancelled at 60%. Sorry to say!

Each team will have it's own problems filling out their rosters.
- phi1671

Yeah I agree with you.... I dont see how Ek or anyone else can stay postive about this when there isnt even anything going on. This Lockout is nasty and to many egos are in front of the game. We should be playing hockey now but bc of a few adult men acting like 12 year olds we dont have it. Im really not on either side bc I think they are both to blame.

Im not Mad or pissed off.... Im Sad bc I thought the NHL and NHLPA was better then this

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Read's Contract; The Realities of NHLers in Europe
- bmeltzer

Pretty ironic to see the shoe on the other foot.

How many Europeans have crossed the pond only to get roundly ripped by NA media and fans for being unwilling/unable to adapt to new surroundings. The entire Russian enigma syndrome? Nik Zherdev? There were people lining up to buy that guy a ticket out of town.

Well, as it turns out, Americans and Canadians are just as likely to struggle under similar circumstances.

Go figure.

The Flyers have been one of the most aggressive teams in exploiting loopholes in the last CBA and treating the draft as a piggy bank rather than a development system. It's no surprise that teams such as Nashville (most likely) don't care how closing loopholes affect the Flyers. They are in a prison of their own making. The Pronger trade and subsequent over 35 contract were pretty idiotic but served a short term need at long term expense. Well the longterm arrived. Also, despite Holmgren's assurances otherwise, the Flyers weren't aware that the contract he signed was a 35+ contract.
- Flyers_01

We've all been saying for years that Homer is more of a talent scout and deal-maker than a manager... he could get away with short-term planning, shifty accounting, and careless mistakes within a looser structure, but if the CBA clamps down, the Flyers are going to have to grant their cap-economists veto power over front-office moves.

The Flyers have been one of the most aggressive teams in exploiting loopholes in the last CBA and treating the draft as a piggy bank rather than a development system. It's no surprise that teams such as Nashville (most likely) don't care how closing loopholes affect the Flyers. They are in a prison of their own making. The Pronger trade and subsequent over 35 contract were pretty idiotic but served a short term need at long term expense. Well the longterm arrived. Also, despite Holmgren's assurances otherwise, the Flyers weren't aware that the contract he signed was a 35+ contract.
- Flyers_01

To be fair, the way things shook out with Pronger isn't what the Flyers had in mind. They didn't throw a multi-year extension at the guy to get a season and a half of hockey before he went down. Maybe they were prepared to suffer a year or two with a dead cap hit, but that he's done this early in the contract doesn't say he wasn't in the longterm plans.

That's not to say they aren't suffering consequences they could foresee. It's just the way the cookie crumbles, in this case.

(EDIT: I'm not arguing that the Flyers haven't played fast and loose with the salary cap, just taking a look at the Pronger contract.)

Pretty ironic to see the shoe on the other foot.

How many Europeans have crossed the pond only to get roundly ripped by NA media and fans for being unwilling/unable to adapt to new surroundings. The entire Russian enigma syndrome? Nik Zherdev? There were people lining up to buy that guy a ticket out of town.

Well, as it turns out, Americans and Canadians are just as likely to struggle under similar circumstances.

Go figure.
- Tomahawk

You my friend just freaky NAILED it.

Yeah I agree with you.... I dont see how Ek or anyone else can stay postive about this when there isnt even anything going on. This Lockout is nasty and to many egos are in front of the game. We should be playing hockey now but bc of a few adult men acting like 12 year olds we dont have it. Im really not on either side bc I think they are both to blame.

Im not Mad or pissed off.... Im Sad bc I thought the NHL and NHLPA was better then this
- Flyers_1488[/quote]

This ^^^^

To be fair, the way things shook out with Pronger isn't what the Flyers had in mind. They didn't throw a multi-year extension at the guy to get a season and a half of hockey before he went down. Maybe they were prepared to suffer a year or two with a dead cap hit, but that he's done this early in the contract doesn't say he wasn't in the longterm plans.

That's not to say they aren't suffering consequences they could foresee. It's just the way the cookie crumbles, in this case.

(EDIT: I'm not arguing that the Flyers haven't played fast and loose with the salary cap, just taking a look at the Pronger contract.)
- BulliesPhan87

The way his contract was structured it is obvious that they were originally expecting him to play a max of 5 years (and possibly only 4 years) of his 7 year contract before retiring. The big thing is that no matter when he retired, his cap hit would come off the ledgers. Currently, with the 35+ rule, there is no benefit to either Pronger or the team in him retiring. Even if the over 35 goes away in the new CBA, Pronger isn't giving up all those millions just to retire.

You are right in that they expected him to play more than 1.25 seasons of the contract but they also left themselves without any wiggle room in case of emergency either.

To be fair, the way things shook out with Pronger isn't what the Flyers had in mind. They didn't throw a multi-year extension at the guy to get a season and a half of hockey before he went down. Maybe they were prepared to suffer a year or two with a dead cap hit, but that he's done this early in the contract doesn't say he wasn't in the longterm plans.

That's not to say they aren't suffering consequences they could foresee. It's just the way the cookie crumbles, in this case.

(EDIT: I'm not arguing that the Flyers haven't played fast and loose with the salary cap, just taking a look at the Pronger contract.)
- BulliesPhan87

What was he, 35, when the Flyers signed him? They got more out of Pronger than I expected. I wasn't happy with the move when they first made it. I figured he'd start breaking down in his first year. He had knee surgery after the first year, had a bunch of injuries during the season and olny played 50 games his second year. I know he's out of hockey because of a freak accident, but how could anyone not expect a guy his age to break down? If it wasn't concussion it would have been his knees.

I think Giroux gets a top 5 contract next time around.

No risk that he signs anywhere other than the Flyers.

But, his agent will have great leverage in negotiations knowing that he is so attractive to teams like Montreal and Ottawa.
- spatso

I wouldn't say no risk at least not until we have the whole picture. There are to many variables to project him signing. I know the Flyers will do their best to keep him but I get the feeling that Bettman is targeting the Flyers with this new cba and cap. I think the next several years are going to be tough financially and they will loose some key assets.

What was he, 35, when the Flyers signed him? They got more out of Pronger than I expected. I wasn't happy with the move when they first made it. I figured he'd start breaking down in his first year. He had knee surgery after the first year, had a bunch of injuries during the season and olny played 50 games his second year. I know he's out of hockey because of a freak accident, but how could anyone not expect a guy his age to break down? If it wasn't concussion it would have been his knees.
- Dkos

He was 34 when he signed it but turned 35 before it kicked in.

He was 34 when he signed it but turned 35 before it kicked in.
- tk71

The Flyers have plenty of experience with UFA big hulking defenseman signed to longterm contracts (see Rathje, Hatcher). Those two had issues even before the Flyers signed them but they did it anyway. The Flyers usually roll the dice with their defensemen and they usually come up snake eyes. Doesn't stop them. The Flyers need to go to gambler's anonymous.

Pretty ironic to see the shoe on the other foot.

How many Europeans have crossed the pond only to get roundly ripped by NA media and fans for being unwilling/unable to adapt to new surroundings. The entire Russian enigma syndrome? Nik Zherdev? There were people lining up to buy that guy a ticket out of town.

Well, as it turns out, Americans and Canadians are just as likely to struggle under similar circumstances.

Go figure.
- Tomahawk

Those Americans and Canadiens have been there for how long? And played how many games over there? Zherdev had 6 NHL Seasons and 421 games played in the NHL to get his act together.

The way his contract was structured it is obvious that they were originally expecting him to play a max of 5 years (and possibly only 4 years) of his 7 year contract before retiring. The big thing is that no matter when he retired, his cap hit would come off the ledgers. Currently, with the 35+ rule, there is no benefit to either Pronger or the team in him retiring. Even if the over 35 goes away in the new CBA, Pronger isn't giving up all those millions just to retire.

You are right in that they expected him to play more than 1.25 seasons of the contract but they also left themselves without any wiggle room in case of emergency either.
- Flyers_01

I think it's too specific to say they expected X years of the contract to be played, but I wouldn't disagree they knew they might be holding the bag on a year or two on the back end. It was a big investment with some known risks, but he had a pretty huge impact on this team before things fell apart.

What was he, 35, when the Flyers signed him? They got more out of Pronger than I expected. I wasn't happy with the move when they first made it. I figured he'd start breaking down in his first year. He had knee surgery after the first year, had a bunch of injuries during the season and olny played 50 games his second year. I know he's out of hockey because of a freak accident, but how could anyone not expect a guy his age to break down? If it wasn't concussion it would have been his knees.
- Dkos

The Flyers gambled for sure. But Pronger definitely made the team better. He brought a dynamic that they didn't have. And are now missing. I'd rather have a team that gambles to try and win then one that never makes moves and just stagnates in mediocrity.

What was he, 35, when the Flyers signed him? They got more out of Pronger than I expected. I wasn't happy with the move when they first made it. I figured he'd start breaking down in his first year. He had knee surgery after the first year, had a bunch of injuries during the season and olny played 50 games his second year. I know he's out of hockey because of a freak accident, but how could anyone not expect a guy his age to break down? If it wasn't concussion it would have been his knees.
- Dkos

Well, that might've been your prediction*, but I don't think it's fair to expect the team to have arrived at that same conclusion. And his twilight wasn't even due to nagging nor age related injuries (though he had been dealing with them), it was as you said a freak occurrence that has shelved him. I think they weighed the pros and cons, he's an older player with significant mileage, but he's also a shoe-in hall of famer who was still a major impact player. If he was only dealing with knee problems, his minutes could be limited, it could be worked around.

(*-not meant in an accusatory or derogatory way)

The Flyers gambled for sure. But Pronger definitely made the team better. He brought a dynamic that they didn't have. And are now missing. I'd rather have a team that gambles to try and win then one that never makes moves and just stagnates in mediocrity.
- MJL

Getting Pronger was a rare chance to fill that difficult and vital role of #1 defenseman. Look how close we got with him, and look at how badly we miss having that role filled since his injury. Hindsight is 20/20, and I wouldn't even argue the Flyers transacted perfectly, but faced with another chance to add that kind of talent (were I GM) I'd have to pull the trigger.

The Flyers gambled for sure. But Pronger definitely made the team better. He brought a dynamic that they didn't have. And are now missing. I'd rather have a team that gambles to try and win then one that never makes moves and just stagnates in mediocrity.
- MJL

I thought Pronger was great too, when he played. Better than I imagined he would be. I was really pissed when the Flyers first announced signing him tho. So many years for a guy his age? I thought the Flyers were finally going to commit to growing a team rather than trying to buy a team and when they announced the moves to get Pronger I was really dissapointed.

I love the Flyers and I love their drive to win, but I think there are other ways to build a successful team than recklessly gambling. It's been a long time since they won a cup.

Getting Pronger was a rare chance to fill that difficult and vital role of #1 defenseman. Look how close we got with him, and look at how badly we miss having that role filled since his injury. Hindsight is 20/20, and I wouldn't even argue the Flyers transacted perfectly, but faced with another chance to add that kind of talent (were I GM) I'd have to pull the trigger.
- BulliesPhan87

been meaning to ask...why Vonnegut?

The Flyers gambled for sure. But Pronger definitely made the team better. He brought a dynamic that they didn't have. And are now missing. I'd rather have a team that gambles to try and win then one that never makes moves and just stagnates in mediocrity.
- MJL

How many recent cup winners have gambled to the extent of the Flyers? In addition to paying more money per year by a large margin than he's ever seen in his career for a defenseman who was on the downside of his career, the Flyers threw away a huge amount of assets.

2 1sts, Luca Sbisa, and Jeffery Lupul. All that with only 1 year remaining on his contract. Pronger himself admitted that Holmgren hadn't talked to him at all before the trade. There was no expectation of a contract extension from his camp when the trade went down. Holmgren very well could've been fired for giving up all those assets for only one year of Pronger. That's why he had to give him the lifetime achievement award contract.

In terms of assets given up and money it was mind boggling. If the Flyers had skipped the trade and offered Pronger that money as a straight up UFA it is unlikely anyone else would have matched.